The Great Crowd - Where are they?

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The Great Crowd:

The Great Crowd Where are they?

Pre-1935:

Pre-1935 Great Crowd (Multitude/Company) go to heaven…

Slide3:

The Finished Mystery (1918 edition) P.134

Slide4:

Reconciliation (1928) P.261

1935 onwards:

1935 onwards Great Crowd are on earth

Slide6:

Grateful for a Long Life in Jehovah’s Service Confident in Kingdom Hope In 1935 we came to understand that the “great crowd” was not a secondary heavenly class. We learned that it instead represents a class that survives the great tribulation and has the opportunity of living forever in Paradise on earth. (Revelation 7:9-14) With this new understanding, some who had partaken of the Memorial emblems realized that theirs was an earthly hope, and they discontinued partaking. Watchtower 1 st October 1997 P.23

Slide7:

9  After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands 15  That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them Revelation 7:9 and 15

Who are the Great Crowd?:

Who are the Great Crowd? The sum of the evidence, therefore, points to the “great crowd” as representing all those persons who are not of the heavenly “bride” class, or 144,000 sealed ones, but who stand approved at the time of the “great tribulation” and are preserved alive on earth . Insight into the Scriptures Vol 1. P. 997

Where do we say they are?:

Where do we say they are? When John saw the “great crowd” rendering sacred service in Jehovah’s temple, in which part of the temple were they doing this?—Revelation 7:9-15 It is reasonable to say that the great crowd worships Jehovah in one of the earthly courtyards of his great spiritual temple , specifically the one that corresponds with the outer courtyard of Solomon’s temple … Questions From Readers – Watchtower 2002 May 1st P.30

Revelation 7:9 and 15:

Revelation 7:9 and 15 Standing (Hestōtes) Before (Enopion) Temple (Naos)

Slide11:

9  After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands 15  That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them Revelation 7:9 and 15 Standing (Hestōtes)

What do we believe?:

What do we believe? Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9,   10 also go to heaven? Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000, that they are “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.—Rev. 14:1-3. Heaven P.168 - Reasoning from the Scriptures 1989 But Revelation 7:9 does state “ out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues”

What do we believe?:

What do we believe? Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9,   10 also go to heaven? The description of them as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb” indicates, not necessarily a location, but an approved condition. (Compare Revelation 6:17; Luke 21:36.) The expression “before the throne” (Greek, e·no′pi·on tou thro′nou ; literally, “in sight of the throne”) does not require that they be in heaven. Their position is simply “in sight” of God, who tells us that from heaven he beholds the sons of men.—Ps. 11:4; compare Matthew 25:31-33; Luke 1:74, 75; Acts 10:33. Heaven P.168 - Reasoning from the Scriptures 1989

What do we believe?:

Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9,   10 also go to heaven? The description of them as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb” indicates, not necessarily a location, but an approved condition. ( Compare Revelation 6:17; Luke 21:36 .). Luke 21:36: ‘stand’ greek - stathēnai Revelation 6:17: ‘stand’ greek - stathēnai Revelation 7:9: ‘standing’ greek - hestōtes What do we believe?

What is Stand or Standing in Greek?:

What is Stand or Standing in Greek? histémi: to make to stand, to stand Original Word: στημι Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: histémi Phonetic Spelling: (his'-tay-mee) Short Definition: I cause to stand, stand Definition: trans: (a) I make to stand, place, set up, establish, appoint; mid: I place myself, stand, (b) I set in balance, weigh; intrans: (c) I stand, stand by, stand still; met: I stand ready, stand firm, am steadfast. Luke 21:36: stand greek - stathēnai Revelation 6:17: stand greek - stathēnai Revelation 7:9: standing greek - hestōtes Histemi Hestōtes and stathēnai come from…

What’s the difference?:

What’s the difference? The use of hestōtes in Revelation 7:9 is listed under Thayer’s II.1 : ‘ properly, a. followed by prepositions or adverbs of place In the Thayer’s Greek lexicon, both Luke 21:36 and Revelation 6:17 are grouped together under Thayer’s I.1 ‘ universal’ for histémi and ‘ general escaping to safety ’ in particular. e.g. standing before… Adverbs of place tell us where something happens (e.g. before ) http://www.edufind.com/english/grammar/adverbs_types.php

‘Standing’ (Hestōtes) conclusion:

‘Standing’ (Hestōtes) conclusion The Society states: ‘ The description of them as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb” indicates, not necessarily a location, but an approved condition’ . But the two scriptures sited (Revelation 6:17; Luke 21:36) actually don’t support this view as Thayer’s Lexicon show these are referring to ‘ general escaping to safety ’ and both use stathēnai which means stand. Revelation 7:9 uses hestōtes which translates as standing Revelation 7:9 is sited in Thayer’s II.1: ‘ properly The Great Crowd are standing in a literal ‘proper’ sense – but where?

Revelation 7:9 and 15:

Revelation 7:9 and 15 Standing (Hestōtes) Before (Enopion) Temple (Naos)

Slide19:

9  After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands 15  That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them Revelation 7:9 and 15 Before (Enopion)

What does ‘Enopion’ mean?:

What does ‘Enopion’ mean? Enopion: (before, in the sight of) Revelation - It’s Grand Climax Is Here P.123 enópios: in sight of, before Original Word: νώπιον Part of Speech: Adverb Transliteration: enópios Phonetic Spelling: (en-o'-pee-on) Short Definition: before the face of, in the presence of Definition: before the face of, in the presence of, in the eyes of. Strong’s Concordance

What do we believe?:

What do we believe? Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9,   10 also go to heaven? The description of them as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb” indicates, not necessarily a location, but an approved condition. (Compare Revelation 6:17; Luke 21:36.) The expression “before the throne” (Greek, e·no′pi·on tou thro′nou ; literally, “in sight of the throne”) does not require that they be in heaven. Their position is simply “in sight” of God , who tells us that from heaven he beholds the sons of men.—Ps. 11:4; compare Matthew 25:31-33; Luke 1:74, 75; Acts 10:33. Matthew 25:32 : ‘before’ (in place or time) greek emprosthen Luke 1:74, 75 : ‘before’ greek enopion Acts 10:33 : ‘before’ greek enopion Revelation 7:9: ‘before’ greek enopion Psalm 11:4 : ‘behold’ hebrew chazah

What’s the difference?:

What’s the difference? Thayer’s: 2. before one's eyes; in one's presence and sight or hearing; e. before one i.e. he looking on and judging, in one's judgment in the sight of God i.e. God looking on and approving: Thayer’s: 1. of occupied place: in that place which is before , or over against, opposite , anyone and toward which another turns his eyes a. properly: But ‘before’ at Revelation 7:9 and 7:15 is listed differently… Luke 1:75, Acts 10:33 ‘before’ is indeed listed by Thayer’s as being ‘in the sight of God’:

Revelation 7:9:

Revelation 7:9 Kingdom Interlinear snapshot Uses of enopion in Rev 7:9. How can the great crowd be stood in sight of the throne (where God is seated) and in sight of the Lamb (Jesus Christ - who is in heaven) and yet still be on Earth?

Revelation 7:11:

Kingdom Interlinear snapshot Revelation 7:11 Use of enopion in Rev 7:11. In this scripture, all the angels fall in sight of the throne and worship God. Are they on Earth or in Heaven? Same wording, but a different location? How does that work?

Some other examples of Thayer’s 1.a ‘Enopion’ in Revelation:

Some other examples of Thayer’s 1.a ‘Enopion’ in Revelation Revelation 1:4 - "seven spirits that are before ( enopion ) his [God's] throne, ...." Revelation 4:5 - "seven lamps of fire burning before ( enopion ) the throne [of God], ...." Revelation 4:10 - "the twenty-four elders fall down before ( enopion ) the One seated upon the throne..., and they cast their crowns before ( enopion ) the throne, ...." Revelation 5:8 - "And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before ( enopion ) the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the  means the prayers of the holy ones." Revelation 8:3 - "And another angel arrived and stood at the altar, having ... incense ... to offer ... with the prayers of all the holy ones upon the golden altar that was before ( enopion ) the throne." Revelation 9:13 - "And I heard one voice out of the horns of the golden altar that is before ( enopion ) God." Revelation 11:16 – “And the twenty-four elders who were seated before ( enopion ) God ...." The Reasoning book states: ‘ The expression “before the throne” (Greek, e·no′pi·on tou thro′nou; literally, “in sight of the throne”) does not require that they be in heaven ’ Yet clearly all the above uses of ‘enopion’ relate to heaven

‘Before’ (Enopion) conclusion:

‘Before’ (Enopion) conclusion The Society states: ‘ The expression “before the throne” (Greek, e·no′pi·on tou thro′nou ; literally, “in sight of the throne”) does not require that they be in heaven. Their position is simply “in sight” of God, who tells us that from heaven he beholds the sons of men’. The scriptures they quote, Luke 1:75 and Acts 10:33 are sited in Thayer’s: 2. meaning: before one's eyes; in one's presence and sight or hearing; e. before one i.e. he looking on and judging, in one's judgment, in the sight of God i.e. God looking on and approving But Revelation 7:9 is listed under Thayer’s: 1. of occupied place : in that place which is before , or over against, opposite , anyone and toward which another turns his eyes a. properly Revelation has numerous uses of enopion that clearly are in heaven (before (in sight of) the throne of God and before the Lamb).

Revelation 7:9 and 15:

Revelation 7:9 and 15 Standing (Hestōtes) Before (Enopion) Temple (Naos)

Slide28:

9  After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands 15  That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them Revelation 7:9 and 15 Temple (Naos)

What did the earthly temple represent? :

What did the earthly temple represent? Jehovah’s Great Spiritual Temple The tabernacle constructed by Moses and the temples built by Solomon, Zerubbabel, and Herod were only typical, or pictorial. This was shown by the apostle Paul when he wrote that the tabernacle, the basic features of which were included in the later temples, was “a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things.” (Heb 8:1-5; see also 1Ki 8:27; Isa 66:1; Ac 7:48; 17:24.) The Christian Greek Scriptures disclose the reality represented by the type. These Scriptures show that the tabernacle and the temples built by Solomon, Zerubbabel, and Herod, along with their features, represented a greater, spiritual temple of Jehovah, “the true tent, which Jehovah put up, and not man.” (Heb 8:2) As revealed by its various features, that spiritual temple is the arrangement for approaching Jehovah in worship on the basis of the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ Insight on the Scriptures Vol 2 P. 1080-1081

What are the Greek words for ‘Temple’?:

What are the Greek words for ‘Temple’? Temple A divine habitation, sacred place or sanctuary, either physical or spiritual, that is employed for worship. The Hebrew word hehkhal, translated “temple,” also means “palace.” The Greek hieron and naos are both rendered “temple ” and may refer to the entire temple complex or to its central edifice; naos ′, meaning “sanctuary” or “divine habitation (dwelling),” at times refers specifically to the sacred inner rooms of the temple. Insight on the Scriptures Vol 2 P. 1076

What’s the difference between Hieron and Naos?:

What’s the difference between Hieron and Naos? The fact is that this temple was not just one building but a series of structures of which the temple sanctuary was the center. In the original tongue this is made quite clear, the Scripture writers distinguishing between the two by the use of the words hieron and naos. Hieron referred to the entire temple grounds, whereas naos applied to the temple structure itself, the successor of the tabernacle in the wilderness. Watchtower August 15 th , 1960 - The Temple of the Apostles’ Time The temple sanctuary or naos occupied only part of the temple area. Then Is Finished The Mystery of God (1969) P 260 (PDF P261)

What’s the difference between Hieron and Naos?:

What’s the difference between Hieron and Naos? hieron : temple. Original Word: iερόν Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter Transliteration: hieron Phonetic Spelling: (hee-er-on') Short Definition: a temple Definition: a temple, either the whole building, or specifically the outer courts, open to worshippers. Strong’s Concordance naos : a temple Original Word: ναός Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: naos Phonetic Spelling: (nah-os') Short Definition: a temple, shrine Definition: a temple, a shrine, that part of the temple where God himself resides .

Herod’s Temple:

Herod’s Temple Below is a scale model of Herods’s Temple in Jerusalem today.

Herod’s Temple:

Herod’s Temple Naos Heiron

Slide35:

Naos

Slide36:

Naos

Revelation 7:15:

Revelation 7:15 Naos or Hieron?

Revelation 7:15:

Revelation 7:15 Kingdom Interlinear snapshot Naos

Is Naos in heaven?:

Is Naos in heaven? Rev 14:17 17 And still another angel emerged from the temple sanctuary (naou) that is in heaven , and he also had a sharp sickle. Rev 11:19 And the temple sanctuary (naos) of God that is in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple sanctuary (nao) . And there occurred lightnings and voices and thunders and an earthquake and a great hail.

Other examples of Naos:

Other examples of Naos Rev 21:22 And I did not see a temple (naon) in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple (naos) , also the Lamb [is] Rev 16:17 And the seventh one poured out his bowl upon the air. At this a loud voice issued out of the sanctuary (naou) from the throne, saying: “It has come to pass!”

Revelation 19:1:

Revelation 19:1 After this I heard what seemed to be a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah!

Revelation 19:1:

Revelation 19:1 The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.—Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37. Heaven P.168 - Reasoning from the Scriptures 1989

Revelation 19:1:

Revelation 19:1 The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.—Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37. There is no evidence to suggest they are angels. Angels are often referenced as such in Revelation. For example Revelation 19:17 which says : I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven

Revelation 19:1:

Revelation 19:1 The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.—Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37. Mark 5:24 : At that Jesus went with him, and a large crowd was following him and pressing against him. Mark 6:35 34 Well, on getting out, he saw a large crowd, and he was moved with pity for them, because they were as sheep without a shepherd. And he started to teach them many things. Mark 12:37   David himself calls him Lord, so how can it be that he is his son?” And the large crowd was listening to him with pleasure. None of the sited scriptures above use ‘the expression “great crowd”’:

Praise Jah for His Judgments!:

Praise Jah for His Judgments! The ‘Revelation – Climax’ book covers 19:1 and ‘a great crowd’ that is heaven. It also doesn’t explain who this group is other that to suggest they are a ‘heavenly chorus’.

Summary 1/2:

Summary 1/2 When John saw the “great crowd” rendering sacred service in Jehovah’s temple, in which part of the temple were they doing this?—Revelation 7:9-15 It is reasonable to say that the great crowd worships Jehovah in one of the earthly courtyards of his great spiritual temple , specifically the one that corresponds with the outer courtyard of Solomon’s temple … Questions From Readers – Watchtower 2002 May 1st P.30 There are two words for temple in Greek, naos and hieron. Naos is for the Most Holy (‘that part of the temple where God himself resides’), Heiron is everywhere else (‘specifically the outer courts’). All the courtyards were in Heiron, none were in Naos.

Summary 2/2:

Members of the great crowd exercise faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. They are spiritually clean, having “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Hence, they are declared righteous with a view to becoming friends of God and of surviving the great tribulation. (James 2:23, 25) In many ways, they are like proselytes in Israel who submitted to the Law covenant and worshiped along with the Israelites. Of course, those proselytes did not serve in the inner courtyard, where the priests performed their duties . And members of the great crowd are not in the inner courtyard of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple, which courtyard represents the condition of perfect, righteous human sonship of the members of Jehovah’s “holy priesthood” while they are on earth. True, so why are the Great Crowd standing before the throne in naos , ‘ that part of the temple where God himself resides ’ ? Summary 2/2 Questions From Readers – Watchtower 2002 May 1st P.31

Final Summary:

Final Summary Naos There were no courtyards in naos An earthly courtyard would come under hieron All the examples of naos in Revelation are clearly in heaven Therefore the Great Crowd are standing (hestōtes), before (enopion) the throne of God in his temple (naos)

Appendix A:

Appendix A Revelation – It’s Grand Climax is near

‘A Multitudinous Great Crowd’:

‘A Multitudinous Great Crowd’ This paragraph focuses on the uses of enopion and of the Hebrew word Lipne (Ex 16:9 and Lev 24:8). But this then removes enopion from the context. Rev 7:9 reads: “That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple ; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.” The quoted scriptures in the paragraph clearly have the Israelites on Earth. There is no suggestion that God needed to transport them, just like Moses didn’t need to be transported anywhere to ‘see’ God’s glory. So where is the Great Crowd? They are before the throne of God, but where is that throne?

‘A Multitudinous Great Crowd’:

‘A Multitudinous Great Crowd’ This, frankly, is disappointing to find. Whilst ‘before’ does have an * next to it, the footnote make no reference to the greek word NOT being enopion. Instead it is the greek word emprosthen. This conveys a different meaning to enopion. It means “in front, before the face”. Thayer’s Concordance lists the use in Matt 25:32 as 2b. “before, in the presence of” and then specifically “before one, i. e. at his tribunal”. Not the same meaning as enopion which means “in the sight of”. Even more disappointingly is this statement that ‘this temple does not refer to the inner sanctuary, the Most Holy. Rather, it is the earthly courtyard of God’s spiritual temple. ’ This is untrue. The 2002 WT corrects this view and highlights the word Hieron which is used for ‘courtyards’, but still means temple. Again context is all. The paragraph highlights that the 24 elders and 144,000 are “round about the throne of Jehovah”. So how can the Great Crowd standing before (in sight of) of the throne of God and be in the temple (naos) yet not be in heaven?!

Appendix B:

Appendix B Thayer’s Lexicon and Strong’s Concordance – How are they viewed by the Society?

Thayer’s:

Thayer’s Quoted from by the Society almost 30 times (WT CD-ROM 2009)

Strong’s Concordance:

Strong’s Concordance Quoted from by the Society over 40 times (WT CD-ROM 2009)

Appendix C:

Appendix C Solomon's Temple and comparison with Herod’s

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