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Premium member Presentation Transcript Sugya #2 : Sugya #2 A Review of Rava’s Chiddush by Get אין אונס בגיטין Slide 3: ` Ones – Circumstance beyond your control Gemara Contrasts Excuse of ones by Get vs. Mezonos Why would a person divorce his wife on condition? : Why would a person divorce his wife on condition? Rashi – to exempt her from the mitzvah of yibbum – What is Yibbum? The mitzvah to marry her brother-in-law if her husband died without any children and to keep the “father’s name” alive Why would a person divorce his wife on condition? : Why would a person divorce his wife on condition? During WWII it was very common for husband’s going away to war – to give their wives a conditional divorce (especially כהנים) if I don’t come back in 12 months this should be a גט and you should remarry… Terms - מוסגים : Terms - מוסגים Ein Ones Bigittin - אין אונס An excuse by get is NOT a good excuse So the Get WORKS! Yeish Ones Bigittin – יש אונס An excuse by get IS a good excuse So the Get does NOT work! Terms - מוסגים : Terms - מוסגים Ein Ones Bigittin - אין אונס An excuse by get is NOT a good excuse So the Get WORKS! Yeish Ones Bigittin – יש אונס An excuse by get IS a good excuse So the Get does NOT work! How is the gemara attempting to prove “ein ones b’gittin” : How is the gemara attempting to prove “ein ones b’gittin” Rashi explains…If ones was really a good excuse the Mishna should have used a case of a person who does not return after 12 months due to a sickness If the Mishna also felt Ones is a good excuse what should the Mishna have said? : If the Mishna also felt Ones is a good excuse what should the Mishna have said? If ones is a good excuse by get then the mishna should write “if a person is late due to “sickness” is not a get & I would know certainly “death” (which is a greater ones) is not a get! Slide 12: Proving אין אונס בגיטין Attempted Proof #3 for Rava Attempted Proof #3 for Rava : Attempted Proof #3 for Rava Slide 14: Look, I am coming!! Look!!! NO!!!!! Proof for Rava : Proof for Rava From Shmuel’s Psak אם לא באתי מכאן ועד שלשים יום Since שמואל says that the halacha is that the “man trying to come” is not called coming – even though it is an אונס – nevertheless the גט is not בטל So we see the excuse of אונס doesn’t work or אין אונס בגיטין Disproof #3 of Proof for Rava : Disproof #3 of Proof for Rava There are two types of אונסין : There are two types of אונסין אונס שכיח Common circumstance beyond my control (פסקי מברא) אונס דלא שכיח Uncommon circumstance beyond my control (sickness) Maybe I will tell you that there is no proof from שמואלthat אונס is not a good excuse : Maybe I will tell you that there is no proof from שמואלthat אונס is not a good excuse אונס שכיח Common circumstance beyond my control (פסקי מברא) In such an instance the excuse will not be accepted Therefore the גט will work אונס דלא שכיח Uncommon circumstance beyond my control But maybe even שמואל would accept the excuse of a REAL אונס that it would be an excuse – he would cancel the get – b/c יש אונס בגיטין Why would שמואל say that an אונס דשכיח is worse? : Why would שמואל say that an אונס דשכיח is worse? דְכֵיוָן דְאִיבָּעֵי לֵיה לְאַתְנוּיֵי וְלֹא אַתְנֵי, אִיהוּ דְאַפְסִיד אַנַפְֹשֵיה Since the husband could have made a condition “this גט will work in 30 days unless I miss the boat…” then he caused himself the “loss” (the divorce) What does it mean that “he caused himself the loss”? : What does it mean that “he caused himself the loss”? Rashi- נדרים כז: ד"ה אונסא - Explains… Since the husband refused to add a clause of the “chance of the אונס of missing the boat” that we view that he REALLY WANTED THE גט to work if HE MISSED THE BOAT! After the Gemara is unsuccessful in bringing a proof for Rava to say אין אונס בגיטין…the gemara comes to a conclusion… : After the Gemara is unsuccessful in bringing a proof for Rava to say אין אונס בגיטין…the gemara comes to a conclusion… Slide 22: There iS nO proOF Rather it is Rava’s own סברה (logic)!! Slide 25: Issue: צנועות - Extra Pious Women If I don’t come back in 12 months…let this be a get.. Logic of the Rava : Logic of the Rava If Ones was a good excuse Issue #1: צנועות - Extra Pious Women If אונס was a good excuse then t’znuos would never get remarried…even if they would get a גט since they would be concerned that an אונס happened (maybe husband was taken captive)and therefore the גט was cancelled This concern is called עגונה : This concern is called עגונה We don’t want a woman to sit and remain alone – officially married but without a husband…especially if (in our case) a get was given Logic of the Rava : Logic of the Rava If Ones was a good excuse Issue #2: פרוצות – Not Extra Pious Women (Regular women) If אונס was a good excuse then peruztos would remarry with the get, but then the husband would arrive years later – say that his delay for not returning home was due to an אונס (which would cancel the get) and the kids would be ממזרים Case of פרוצות : Case of פרוצות Concern is of children being ממזרים : Concern is of children being ממזרים A ממזר is a child born to a forbidden relationship In this case, it is a child born to a woman (who is currently married to another man) with a man other than her husband Tosafos Understanding : Tosafos Understanding T’znuos Are not required to be waiting the way they are They are being extra strict and being concerned for the minority chance that an אונס happened Since the majority of times an ones does not happen P’rutzos 2 Opinions Are not so bad Didn’t check into rumors (honest mistake) Are really bad! Knew an אונס happened and intentionally mislead people into thinking she was divorced and remarry Question on Rava’s Logic : Question on Rava’s Logic The Gemara continues… According to the Torah, what is the Halacha regarding an אונס? : According to the Torah, what is the Halacha regarding an אונס? Isn’t ones a good excus? Throughout the Torah we find that אונס is an good excuse… : Throughout the Torah we find that אונס is an good excuse… מת האיש אשר שכב עמה לבדו. ולנערה לא תעשה דבר אין לנערה חטא מות, כי כאשר יקום איש על רעהו ורצחו נפש כן הדבר הזה. כי בשדה מצאה, צעקה הנערה המאורשה ואין מושיע לה. Source for אונס in the Torah : Source for אונס in the Torah A man who rapes a girl is punished by death…but the girl…you should not do anything to…if she cried out, since there was nobody to save her (since it was an Ones) This leads us to the Gemara’s Question… : This leads us to the Gemara’s Question… Question on Rava : Question on Rava If according to the Torah, אונס is a good excuse, that means that the גט according to the Torah is cancelled!! = How can Rava make a גט work if according to the TORAH it’s not a גט!? : How can Rava make a גט work if according to the TORAH it’s not a גט!? Can Rava go against the Torah to make a גט work (that shouldn’t) just to protect these women? : Can Rava go against the Torah to make a גט work (that shouldn’t) just to protect these women? Answer : Answer כל דמקדש אדעתא דרבנן מקדש The man says, "הרי את מקודשת לי כדת משה וישראל" What does it mean כדת משה וישראל? : What does it mean כדת משה וישראל? Rashi כל המקדש אשה על דעת שהנהיגו חכמי ישראל בישראל הוא מקדשה שיהיו קיימין קידושין לפי דברי חכמים ויהיו בטילים לפי דברי חכמים על ידי גיטין שהכשירו חכמים. Whoever does קדושין to a woman does it according to the mindset of the Rabbis of Israel, meaning, that the marriage should exist and become nullified according to the words of the Rabbis and based on the גט‘s of the Rabbis Can the Rabbis really cancel a marriage!!? In order to make this גט work?!! : Can the Rabbis really cancel a marriage!!? In order to make this גט work?!! Yes, but it would seem to depend… The Power of the Rabbis : The Power of the Rabbis Uprooting the Kiddushin – אפקעינהו Why can the Rabbis undo a marriage that was done… : Why can the Rabbis undo a marriage that was done… Why it is easier to for the Rabbis to “undo” a marriage that began through כסף than a marriage that began through ביאה… Slide 52: מה תהא על ביאתו Explained by the Ritvah חכמים היאך לא יחושו על ביאתו ועושה מעות מתנה מעיקרן Rabbis are willing to undo even the קדושין of ביאה As it may not be considered retroactively an עבירה Slide 54: Rabbis can Make $ הפקר And all ביאות Are “on their Own” עבירות But won’t want To make your ביאה uprooted b/c an עבירה – because Then the Rabbis are Directly making you do An עבירה Yes, they are willing to Make you do an direct עבירה Slide 55: RASHI Argues on the statement of רבותי מפרשים Saying that we learn out from the buying of מערת המכפילה the use of money for kiddushin therefore כסף קדושין is clearly from the Torah Slide 56: Rabbis can Undo כסף since It’s דרבנן Rabbis cannot undo קדושי ביאה since it is from the Torah ? Explanation for the רבותי מפרשים : Explanation for the רבותי מפרשים Kiddushin with ביאה is not ideal Gittin 33a – רב מנגיד אמאן דמקדש בביאה Rav would give lashes to one who would do so Kiddushin 12b – הוי ביאת זנות...וחוצפה... Gemara calls it “zenus” or improper relations The Conclusion of the Gemara : The Conclusion of the Gemara Explains לב שמח (Shoresh #2) Since the Rabbis ultimately call this act of ביאה an act of זנות or improper relations therefore (even though technically it should be קדושין that is good according to the Torah it is downgraded to Rabbinic קדושין and therefore the Rabbis can “undo” it! You do not have the permission to view this presentation. In order to view it, please contact the author of the presentation.
Sugya 2 Ones Bigittin 2b (1) Without Aud Rabbicooper Download Post to : URL : Related Presentations : Share Add to Flag Embed Email Send to Blogs and Networks Add to Channel Uploaded from authorPOINT lite Insert YouTube videos in PowerPont slides with aS Desktop Copy embed code: (To copy code, click on the text box) Embed: URL: Thumbnail: WordPress Embed Customize Embed The presentation is successfully added In Your Favorites. Views: 36 Category: Education License: All Rights Reserved Like it (1) Dislike it (0) Added: December 09, 2009 This Presentation is Public Favorites: 0 Presentation Description No description available. Comments Posting comment... Premium member Presentation Transcript Sugya #2 : Sugya #2 A Review of Rava’s Chiddush by Get אין אונס בגיטין Slide 3: ` Ones – Circumstance beyond your control Gemara Contrasts Excuse of ones by Get vs. Mezonos Why would a person divorce his wife on condition? : Why would a person divorce his wife on condition? Rashi – to exempt her from the mitzvah of yibbum – What is Yibbum? The mitzvah to marry her brother-in-law if her husband died without any children and to keep the “father’s name” alive Why would a person divorce his wife on condition? : Why would a person divorce his wife on condition? During WWII it was very common for husband’s going away to war – to give their wives a conditional divorce (especially כהנים) if I don’t come back in 12 months this should be a גט and you should remarry… Terms - מוסגים : Terms - מוסגים Ein Ones Bigittin - אין אונס An excuse by get is NOT a good excuse So the Get WORKS! Yeish Ones Bigittin – יש אונס An excuse by get IS a good excuse So the Get does NOT work! Terms - מוסגים : Terms - מוסגים Ein Ones Bigittin - אין אונס An excuse by get is NOT a good excuse So the Get WORKS! Yeish Ones Bigittin – יש אונס An excuse by get IS a good excuse So the Get does NOT work! How is the gemara attempting to prove “ein ones b’gittin” : How is the gemara attempting to prove “ein ones b’gittin” Rashi explains…If ones was really a good excuse the Mishna should have used a case of a person who does not return after 12 months due to a sickness If the Mishna also felt Ones is a good excuse what should the Mishna have said? : If the Mishna also felt Ones is a good excuse what should the Mishna have said? If ones is a good excuse by get then the mishna should write “if a person is late due to “sickness” is not a get & I would know certainly “death” (which is a greater ones) is not a get! Slide 12: Proving אין אונס בגיטין Attempted Proof #3 for Rava Attempted Proof #3 for Rava : Attempted Proof #3 for Rava Slide 14: Look, I am coming!! Look!!! NO!!!!! Proof for Rava : Proof for Rava From Shmuel’s Psak אם לא באתי מכאן ועד שלשים יום Since שמואל says that the halacha is that the “man trying to come” is not called coming – even though it is an אונס – nevertheless the גט is not בטל So we see the excuse of אונס doesn’t work or אין אונס בגיטין Disproof #3 of Proof for Rava : Disproof #3 of Proof for Rava There are two types of אונסין : There are two types of אונסין אונס שכיח Common circumstance beyond my control (פסקי מברא) אונס דלא שכיח Uncommon circumstance beyond my control (sickness) Maybe I will tell you that there is no proof from שמואלthat אונס is not a good excuse : Maybe I will tell you that there is no proof from שמואלthat אונס is not a good excuse אונס שכיח Common circumstance beyond my control (פסקי מברא) In such an instance the excuse will not be accepted Therefore the גט will work אונס דלא שכיח Uncommon circumstance beyond my control But maybe even שמואל would accept the excuse of a REAL אונס that it would be an excuse – he would cancel the get – b/c יש אונס בגיטין Why would שמואל say that an אונס דשכיח is worse? : Why would שמואל say that an אונס דשכיח is worse? דְכֵיוָן דְאִיבָּעֵי לֵיה לְאַתְנוּיֵי וְלֹא אַתְנֵי, אִיהוּ דְאַפְסִיד אַנַפְֹשֵיה Since the husband could have made a condition “this גט will work in 30 days unless I miss the boat…” then he caused himself the “loss” (the divorce) What does it mean that “he caused himself the loss”? : What does it mean that “he caused himself the loss”? Rashi- נדרים כז: ד"ה אונסא - Explains… Since the husband refused to add a clause of the “chance of the אונס of missing the boat” that we view that he REALLY WANTED THE גט to work if HE MISSED THE BOAT! After the Gemara is unsuccessful in bringing a proof for Rava to say אין אונס בגיטין…the gemara comes to a conclusion… : After the Gemara is unsuccessful in bringing a proof for Rava to say אין אונס בגיטין…the gemara comes to a conclusion… Slide 22: There iS nO proOF Rather it is Rava’s own סברה (logic)!! Slide 25: Issue: צנועות - Extra Pious Women If I don’t come back in 12 months…let this be a get.. Logic of the Rava : Logic of the Rava If Ones was a good excuse Issue #1: צנועות - Extra Pious Women If אונס was a good excuse then t’znuos would never get remarried…even if they would get a גט since they would be concerned that an אונס happened (maybe husband was taken captive)and therefore the גט was cancelled This concern is called עגונה : This concern is called עגונה We don’t want a woman to sit and remain alone – officially married but without a husband…especially if (in our case) a get was given Logic of the Rava : Logic of the Rava If Ones was a good excuse Issue #2: פרוצות – Not Extra Pious Women (Regular women) If אונס was a good excuse then peruztos would remarry with the get, but then the husband would arrive years later – say that his delay for not returning home was due to an אונס (which would cancel the get) and the kids would be ממזרים Case of פרוצות : Case of פרוצות Concern is of children being ממזרים : Concern is of children being ממזרים A ממזר is a child born to a forbidden relationship In this case, it is a child born to a woman (who is currently married to another man) with a man other than her husband Tosafos Understanding : Tosafos Understanding T’znuos Are not required to be waiting the way they are They are being extra strict and being concerned for the minority chance that an אונס happened Since the majority of times an ones does not happen P’rutzos 2 Opinions Are not so bad Didn’t check into rumors (honest mistake) Are really bad! Knew an אונס happened and intentionally mislead people into thinking she was divorced and remarry Question on Rava’s Logic : Question on Rava’s Logic The Gemara continues… According to the Torah, what is the Halacha regarding an אונס? : According to the Torah, what is the Halacha regarding an אונס? Isn’t ones a good excus? Throughout the Torah we find that אונס is an good excuse… : Throughout the Torah we find that אונס is an good excuse… מת האיש אשר שכב עמה לבדו. ולנערה לא תעשה דבר אין לנערה חטא מות, כי כאשר יקום איש על רעהו ורצחו נפש כן הדבר הזה. כי בשדה מצאה, צעקה הנערה המאורשה ואין מושיע לה. Source for אונס in the Torah : Source for אונס in the Torah A man who rapes a girl is punished by death…but the girl…you should not do anything to…if she cried out, since there was nobody to save her (since it was an Ones) This leads us to the Gemara’s Question… : This leads us to the Gemara’s Question… Question on Rava : Question on Rava If according to the Torah, אונס is a good excuse, that means that the גט according to the Torah is cancelled!! = How can Rava make a גט work if according to the TORAH it’s not a גט!? : How can Rava make a גט work if according to the TORAH it’s not a גט!? Can Rava go against the Torah to make a גט work (that shouldn’t) just to protect these women? : Can Rava go against the Torah to make a גט work (that shouldn’t) just to protect these women? Answer : Answer כל דמקדש אדעתא דרבנן מקדש The man says, "הרי את מקודשת לי כדת משה וישראל" What does it mean כדת משה וישראל? : What does it mean כדת משה וישראל? Rashi כל המקדש אשה על דעת שהנהיגו חכמי ישראל בישראל הוא מקדשה שיהיו קיימין קידושין לפי דברי חכמים ויהיו בטילים לפי דברי חכמים על ידי גיטין שהכשירו חכמים. Whoever does קדושין to a woman does it according to the mindset of the Rabbis of Israel, meaning, that the marriage should exist and become nullified according to the words of the Rabbis and based on the גט‘s of the Rabbis Can the Rabbis really cancel a marriage!!? In order to make this גט work?!! : Can the Rabbis really cancel a marriage!!? In order to make this גט work?!! Yes, but it would seem to depend… The Power of the Rabbis : The Power of the Rabbis Uprooting the Kiddushin – אפקעינהו Why can the Rabbis undo a marriage that was done… : Why can the Rabbis undo a marriage that was done… Why it is easier to for the Rabbis to “undo” a marriage that began through כסף than a marriage that began through ביאה… Slide 52: מה תהא על ביאתו Explained by the Ritvah חכמים היאך לא יחושו על ביאתו ועושה מעות מתנה מעיקרן Rabbis are willing to undo even the קדושין of ביאה As it may not be considered retroactively an עבירה Slide 54: Rabbis can Make $ הפקר And all ביאות Are “on their Own” עבירות But won’t want To make your ביאה uprooted b/c an עבירה – because Then the Rabbis are Directly making you do An עבירה Yes, they are willing to Make you do an direct עבירה Slide 55: RASHI Argues on the statement of רבותי מפרשים Saying that we learn out from the buying of מערת המכפילה the use of money for kiddushin therefore כסף קדושין is clearly from the Torah Slide 56: Rabbis can Undo כסף since It’s דרבנן Rabbis cannot undo קדושי ביאה since it is from the Torah ? Explanation for the רבותי מפרשים : Explanation for the רבותי מפרשים Kiddushin with ביאה is not ideal Gittin 33a – רב מנגיד אמאן דמקדש בביאה Rav would give lashes to one who would do so Kiddushin 12b – הוי ביאת זנות...וחוצפה... Gemara calls it “zenus” or improper relations The Conclusion of the Gemara : The Conclusion of the Gemara Explains לב שמח (Shoresh #2) Since the Rabbis ultimately call this act of ביאה an act of זנות or improper relations therefore (even though technically it should be קדושין that is good according to the Torah it is downgraded to Rabbinic קדושין and therefore the Rabbis can “undo” it!